tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post8810136894279513144..comments2011-06-04T09:13:17.666-04:00Comments on The Unromantic Richard III: Elizabeth Woodville, Non-Bearer of Bad Tidings?Susan Higginbothamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-56203580227512235122007-10-31T18:46:00.000-04:002007-10-31T18:46:00.000-04:00Thanks for the info re Pollard and Horrox. I've fo...Thanks for the info re Pollard and Horrox. <BR/>I've found this, in Charles Ross / Edward IV, p.414/5 : <BR/>... Edward suddenly fell ill about Eastertide (28.-30. March). <BR/>"The king's illness was serious enough for his death to be reported prematurely in York on April 6, and a mass was sung for his soul in the Minster the next day." <BR/>I guess it depends how "mass for his soul" is interpreted. <BR/><BR/>------<BR/>Oops. Just found this note, Rhoda Edwards "Itinerary...", p.1:<BR/>"April 1483<BR/>7 Monday - False news of King Edward IV's death reached York on 6th. Requiem mass was sung on 7th. <BR/>- York Civic Records, p. 71" <BR/><BR/>Hm. Can those records possibly be wrong regarding the nature of the mass, i.e. that it was not exactly a requiem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-396253933070389472007-10-30T15:06:00.000-04:002007-10-30T15:06:00.000-04:00It is a fact that everyone had a spy network in pl...It is a fact that everyone had a spy network in place but it could also have been that Richard dismissed the rumours, for those are what they were at that time, of his brother's demise. On the other hand, the fact he rode out from Middleham in head to foot black and so did everyone with him probably meant he took at least part of it seriously.Antonia Woodvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594229396805493611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-4674503113182282492007-10-29T22:09:00.000-04:002007-10-29T22:09:00.000-04:00Yup, Anon, it is Horrox, pp. 89-90 of Richard III:...Yup, Anon, it is Horrox, pp. 89-90 of Richard III: A Study in Service (paperback ed.) She states that it appears that Exeter also may have received a premature report of Edward IV's death. So the York rumor surely would have put Richard on alert for news of his brother--perhaps he had sent his own messenger to court to be informed of the status of his brother's health?Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-3435225183633875512007-10-29T21:37:00.000-04:002007-10-29T21:37:00.000-04:00Carla, I'm not sure who would get the job of sendi...Carla, I'm not sure who would get the job of sending bad news. I would think that Hastings as chamberlain would have been a perfectly logical choice to dispatch the messengers, though.<BR/><BR/>Anon, I should have mentioned the rumor, but I figured the post was getting too convoluted to begin with! Pollard mentions it at the beginning of Chapter 4 of Richard III and the Princes in the Tower (p. 90 in my paperback edition). I know I've seen it elsewhere, though--will have to dig a little.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-44858033457385342102007-10-29T20:50:00.000-04:002007-10-29T20:50:00.000-04:00Unfortunately my memory is a bit blurry, but wasn'...Unfortunately my memory is a bit blurry, but wasn't the mass for the dead king held at York 2 days before he actually died? Together with the 5-days journey and, lets say, one day of preparation, the message of his death would have been dispatched 8 days before his death. That is rather remarkable, I think, and I haven't found it discussed anywhere yet. I wonder, is there any particular reason why you don't mention it here? <BR/><BR/>Sorry, can't recall the source, and now I will have to rummage all the books where I could have read it. Maybe it was Horrox?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-65321999737025832032007-10-28T13:24:00.000-04:002007-10-28T13:24:00.000-04:00Gabriele beat me to it. Curses! That'll teach me...Gabriele beat me to it. Curses! That'll teach me to figure out RSS...<BR/><BR/>Looks like an absence of evidence argument, doesn't it? The sources don't say who sent Richard the news, which can be interpreted to mean (a) there was nothing out of the ordinary so it wasn't worth recording, or (b) there was some sort of cover-up.<BR/><BR/>Who usually got the job of sending out letters like this? I'd have assumed it would be some high-ranking official, like the chamberlain, rather than the king's wife, if only because all kings have chamberlains but not all kings have wives.<BR/><BR/>I like your August scenario -imagine how different history would have been! But Richard would surely have had spies, no?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-31381869230762288602007-10-27T00:44:00.000-04:002007-10-27T00:44:00.000-04:00Dorothy, I'm looking forward to seeing it once you...Dorothy, I'm looking forward to seeing it once you do get it printed.<BR/><BR/>Gabriele: LOL!Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-72316346521714337442007-10-26T11:57:00.000-04:002007-10-26T11:57:00.000-04:00...Elizabeth Woodville combines all of the worst q...<I>...Elizabeth Woodville combines all of the worst qualifies of Imelda Marcos, Cruella de Vil, and Britney Spears...</I><BR/><BR/>She he has hundreds of pairs of shoes made from dalmatine skin, and then can't figure out which ones go on what foot? :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-39314003176136596572007-10-25T13:15:00.000-04:002007-10-25T13:15:00.000-04:00Edward Woodville, fiction and non fiction. It is b...Edward Woodville, fiction and non fiction. It is based on such facts as there are, but because the main audience is the Isle of Wight population and tourist trade, I am linking the story heavily toward the real reason for writing it. In 1488 Edward Woodville took some 440 men from the island to fight in Brittany, without the King's permission. One came back to tell the tale of what happened to the others. They have no memorial on the island. This book will be their memorial. It will be privately printed, by my own company, and distributed around the island and to anyone who is interested. <BR/>But, Edward Woodville hardly appears in the history books until after Edward IV dies, so I am having to create a role for him up to then, which is why it is part fiction, part fact. The facts come from a very old (103 years) article in an American journal and a French account of the campaign (which cost me a fortune to have translated).Antonia Woodvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12594229396805493611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-4595106126794934462007-10-25T07:45:00.000-04:002007-10-25T07:45:00.000-04:00Thanks for stopping by, Dorothy! Is your book on E...Thanks for stopping by, Dorothy! Is your book on Edward Woodville fiction or nonfiction? Either way, I'm looking forward to it!Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1885384407928289624.post-61696054518335218092007-10-24T13:41:00.000-04:002007-10-24T13:41:00.000-04:00There is, unfortunately, a tendency to besmear all...There is, unfortunately, a tendency to besmear all and sundry in this time period. The accepted version is that Hastings wrote a hurried note, that a messenger brought the official news, that - well, in a time when it took five days to get anywhere with a message (and we complain when the Internet goes down!) anything could have happened. Elizabeth no doubt thought of her son first, he had at a young age suddenly become King and busied herself with a) grief and b) arrangements for him to come to London immediately. What seems to have happened is that Earl Rivers did not hurry to London, he took his time. He held a St Georges Day celebration and packed several carts full of possessions before setting out. Meantime Richard of Gloucester had set out the moment he got the news, head to foot in deep black mourning and all his men, too. <BR/>I think this particular happening needs to be viewed from all different angles and taking into account the agenda of each person, too. Hastings, if he didn't get himself into Gloucester's good books immediately, would be out of a job. Rivers had the welfare of his nephew to consider and did not rush to get him to London from the home he knew and was secure and familiar with. Gloucester had a duty to get to London because he was Lord Protector and distrusted the Woodvilles, for a variety of reasons. The meeting in Stony Stratford was a disaster waiting to happen, as two family heads came together in that pivotal moment. Who knows what was said over dinner that night which made Gloucester have them all arrested next morning? No one is saying. We can only use conjecture and supposition.<BR/>What we can do, though, is be sure that when we write of that time, we do not make foolish mistakes. One author avowed he had spent five years researching his book on Richard III and yet had him march up to Rivers before he had even set foot in Stony Stratford and had him arrested. Apart from the historical fact that this did not happen, it makes a better story to have the dinner, the drinking, the surprise arrest next morning. Methinks some writers don't research enough or see the potential for a good scene when it is presented to them! <BR/>So, consider each person in turn, look at their background, their attitude to each other and their agenda. Then decide who held back the news and who didn't. It makes for interesting thoughts. I know, I do it all the time with these people as I work my way through various books relating to them. (Current book, Edward Woodville, now there's a cypher for you!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com